Is an interesting translation…
Da Boss Above, he take care me,
Jalike da sheep farma take care his sheeps.
He goin give me everyting I need.He let me lie down wea da sweet an soft grass stay.
He lead me by da water wea I can rest.He give me new kine life.
He lead me in da road dat stay right,
Cuz I his guy.
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(NIV, 1st Corinthians 6:9-11)
Chris, have any thoughts on the “washed” part? I call myself a Christian yet I drink more than my wife thinks I should. Why haven’t I been washed of the desire to drink? Greed, I would rather put money in my bank account than give it to a church (don’t attend), yet I don’t mind sharing with the guy who has the ‘will work for food’ sign. “…will not inherit the kingdom of God..” does this mean I am going to hell? Didn’t Noah dring alot?
This is a written reprimand against denominations. (my first heresy of the day!) the other stuff is incidental, and I myself will place the words in red before the words of Paul, and I don’t believe that ongoing sin causes us to lose favor with God. Ya know, I don’t read Greek or Hebrew (I’ve actually got some curriculum laying around, for when I get caught up…when I got it the first glance was intimidating :D), but your average churchy fella will probably say that this refers to our being “cleansed” of sin. There are lotsa verses people quote. I like “as far as the east is from the west.” Quite a few Christians I have talked with teach that God does not even remember our sin (This is total bullshit…as Andy Stanley observes, if this were the case, every sermon that mentioned David nailing Bathsheba would leave God puzzled, and disoriented…divine Alzheimer’s.) Another popular doctrine is that we must ask for forgiveness each time we sin, in spite of the fact that Jesus died for every sin, past present or future. There are a dozen posts just in that concept alone…thanks for the fodder. God has not removed your desire to drink. I don’t know that he ever will. I predict if you continue to drink, the desire will become more entrenched. If we wanna go on a doctrinal acquisition foray through the Gospels, we find an interesting take on what mainstream religianity calls substance abuse.
Of course, Alcoholism is real. Will bite your ass. Just ask my ex wife.
As to greed, IMO greed is not a have/don’t have characteristic for most of us. It is a question of how much you got, and what form does it take. If you will give to a homeless guy, you must have a nugget of compassion, or guilt, or something buried in that little heart of yours. 🙂
We know Noah got shitfaced at least once, we don’t know if Noah drank a lot. I feel safe in assuming he didn’t drink enough to be a fuckup.We all have a point where enough alcohol or any recreational drug for that matter, begins to degrade the quality of our life. I assure you that if we have begun to notice it, significant damage has already been done. There are places where “Hell” refers to the Jerusalem town dump, in the red ink, no less. There are references to the “Lake of Fire”. Neither is a good spot to aim for, I would imagine. Their is no place I know of where Jesus said “This is how to stay out of Hell”
Religianity will detail things you must do to obtain what they call “The Free Gift Of Grace”, which seems a contradiction to me, but I am a heretic. They will list ways you must feel, motives you must have, and even a chant you must utter, as in “repeat after me, to get saved“.
I don’t think they quite grasp the reality of unmerited favor. I don’t think you are going to hell.
Anonymous,
I would like to mention a couple things.
More than once, your comments have been sad. You drink. I don’t know how much you drink, but drinking and sadness can precipitate a helluva nasty spiral and you know this, though it is easy to forget. If your wife has a problem, You have a problem. Period. Love comes with complications. Also, I’ve never met a wife who thought her husband drank too much….who was wrong about it. Your wife is afraid. Do something. These things don’t go away and they will contribute to your sadness. And we know what sadness will contribute to, in a man who likes to catch a buzz. Be very careful.
Okay, I am probably not gonna have another ‘to be continued…’ blogpost. The pressure was horrible. Plus, thinking about Part II made me wonder if Part I sucked. It was totally different from posting and forgetting about it. Not good. And fair warning, BTW. This is a post on theology. It may be boring… and is contrary to what I have been taught in Church.
So, to recap Part I (actually, this will be much easier to follow, with a couple points I forgot to mention.)
In Acts chapter 15, when Peter and the Boys hold palaver on the Issue of Making Gentiles Cut Off Pieces of Their Penises, they draft a letter for Paul’s posse to carry back to the newbies explaining it was a false alarm. Which is all good. Nobody today seriously thinks you have to be circumcised to Go to Heaven.
But there is verse that catches my eye.
For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us 88 not to place any greater burden on you than these necessary rules: 89 15:29 that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols 90 and from blood and from what has been strangled 91 and from sexual immorality. 92 If you keep yourselves from doing these things, 93 you will do well. Farewell.
Now, as they saying goes “Did it ever occur to you, that nothing occurs to God?”
Think about it. You’re Peter. This means you are :
You are a Jerusalem Rock Star. A redneck fisherman, you hung with Jesus, and You have healed people miraculously in public. More then once, the bible portrays you as having a defective filter between your brain and your mouth. Now if this man hears audible direction from God, in an environment where such things were known to happen, He says “God told me that was WRONG.” he doesn’t use the word “seems”.
It is from the Epistles that we get much of the doctrine regarding marriage, sexual morality, treatment of divorcees, treatment of homosexuals, and what to tell people about about the Good News That You Go To Hell If You Don’t Believe What We Believe. If we rank scripture hierarchically, placing the speech of Jesus at the top, followed by His canon (The Old Testament), then the epistles, we can construct and entirely different set of protocols for how the church should behave about these matters. My point is that getting doctrine from the pulpit, is contrary to Jesus’ directive in Matthew:
23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 23:2 “The 1 experts in the law 2 and the Pharisees 3 sit on Moses’ seat. 23:3 Therefore pay attention to what they tell you and do it. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 23:4 They 5 tie up heavy loads, hard to carry, and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing even to lift a finger to move them. 23:5 They 6 do all their deeds to be seen by people, for they make their phylacteries 7 wide and their tassels 8 long. 23:6 They 9 love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues 10 23:7 and elaborate greetings 11 in the marketplaces, and to have people call them ‘Rabbi.’ 23:8 But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers. 23:9 And call no one your ‘father’ on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 23:10 Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one teacher, the Christ. 12 23:11 The 13 greatest among you will be your servant. 23:12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
23:13 “But woe to you, experts in the law 14 and you Pharisees, hypocrites! 15 You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! 16 For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.
I think a good argument can be made, that we should read for ourselves, and never think we are in a position to decide people should be denied things we have because their moral performance is lower than ours.
Just a thought…A lot of Church Doctrine comes from the epistles. In my mind, Scripture should be weighted selectively. First priority, or the heaviest weight should be accorded to the red ink, the speech of Jesus. From there, I tend to give equal credence to the remainder of the Gospels, and the Old testament as a whole. Lastly, The epistles, and Revelation. My reasoning for this is a little convoluted. Jesus endorses the older writings, and he did rise from the dead, after all. That’s a big deal.
Interestingly enough, Jesus tells the blindly religious:
“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me!”
John 5:39, The Message
Jesus places himself above Scripture more than once (Imagine that!). It’s funny. As soon a religion overwhelmed relationship, we began to use Scripture to explain Jesus, rather than Jesus to explain Scripture. When we do this, we get funny.
We burn witches. And Protestants. And Catholics. And Mormons. We persecute homosexuals. If Church leaders are capable of something as asinine as the Crusades, surely they are capable of a couple of theological errors. Paul, Mr. Gung Ho Off the Freaking Chain, speaks to the fact in 1st Corinthians, when he holds forth on what he and God think about marriage and divorce, making it a point to mention that his ideas and God’s are separate. What a concept. I have never heard any mention of this from a pulpit. Another troublesome verse in Acts speaks tellingly to the fact that even Peter and the Jerusalem Apostle’s Association don’t know where God stands on doctrine. Peter even goes so far as to put this in writing.
One passage of Acts tells us a story of some new gentile Christians. They have been relaxing in euphoric generosity (Old school Christians would sell their shit and give the money to the Church to parcel out to the needier Christians), because they don’t have to go to Hell and Burn Forever. Hell Yeah! (hell, no?) Of course we love Jesus! Have some money, and lets eat together!
Often, just as we are thinking how cool Jesus is some religious guy comes over and has to ruin it. God wanted to make sure we knew this has been happening since the very beginning, as we see from Acts of the Apostles. Some ultraspiritual dudes pop up and tell the newbies “Ah, You need to cut off part of your dick to do this Jesus thing, and not go to Hell and Burn Forever.”
There is naturally a stunned silence. (Ya gotta love Luke. His Gospel, and the Book of Acts are fascinating.)
The Committee Representing Those Who Read the Bible and Know What God Wants continue: “Not all of it. Just part of it. And not even the most important part. We just want you to cut off the skin that keeps the head sensitive. So sex is more fun. Cut that part off. We had to do it. Don’t you love Moses? Jesus did this. Jesus loved Moses.”
This seemed like a big step. These new Christians wanted a second opinion. Even the girls. (I’m sure this was the talk of the congregation, even though Luke doesn’t explicitly state this).
They send Paul’s Posse to confer with Peter and The Jerusalem Apostle’s Association. (This had to really annoy Paul, who thinks he is an Apostle…good stuff, the Bible.) They Have A Meeting. Never known for verbal restraint, Peter begins to preach. Then they write a letter. A letter where Peter makes clear that apostolic opinion on doctrine is only that. An opinion. This is special. We’ll take a look at the letter next week.
Special thanks to Tracy Taylor, one of my flickr contacts for the use of her image, and her quick reply to my request. I needed something appropriate, and googling “bride whore” and the like REALLY wasn’t getting me what I needed.
I was tracking down an email in an old unused account, and stumbled across one from an old friend, entitled “lover or prostitute”. My friend Rick is a respected thinker/mentor figure in my life, and a devout Christian,whose opinion generally carries weight with me. Also, I have never rented a prostitute, and that whole thing is mysterious, and titillating. Of course I stopped scanning the other 400 chunks of forwarded jokes, ads for camping gear (not spam) and products to make my boobs bigger, or my butt smaller (spam). I opened it. I was an article penned by David Ryser, who writes with a clarity I envy. It was VERY thought provoking.
Now, Rick is an entrepreneur, restaurateur, and executive of tremendous success, but Rick don’t blog, and Rick don’t HTML. No link. It was weird, I found references to Ryser’s article all over the web but couldn’t find anyone who had linked ‘im.
So there. One of the no-linkers posted his email address. His url was in my box bright an early this morning.
Dude has posted an enormous amount of stuff on theology, and this was the first article, entitled “Lover or Prostitute? the Question That Changed My Life”. It must have changed his life if his blog is one of the results. It’s not light reading, but it’s clear. What he writes doesn’t confuse me. What he makes me think about… THAT may be a little confusing.
Dr. Ryser recalls a day he was teaching in a school of ministry:
I came across a quote attributed most often to Rev. Sam Pascoe. It is a short version of the history of Christianity, and it goes like this: “Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.” Some of the students were only 18 or 19 years old–barely out of diapers–and I wanted them to understand and appreciate the import of the last line, so I clarified it by adding, “An enterprise. That’s a business.” After a few moments Martha, the youngest student in the class, raised her hand. I could not imagine what her question might be. I thought the little vignette was self-explanatory, and that I had performed it brilliantly. Nevertheless, I acknowledged Martha’s raised hand, “Yes, Martha.” She asked such a simple question, “A business? But isn’t it supposed to be a body?” I could not envision where this line of questioning was going, and the only response I could think of was, “Yes.” She continued, “But when a body becomes a business, isn’t that a prostitute?”
I’m goin’ kinda slow here, cuz the email was abridged. So as I read the article I’m stumbling over even more stuff to think about. Martha has asked a couple humdinger’s and Dr. Paul makes a couple points about knowing/knowledge, and motives, expressing the an opinion that most American Christians do not know God–much less love Him. If I can muddy the water a bit, I would like to interject that in English, the word love is extremely vague, defined by context, often used in speech between people who have different things in mind. One way to minimize this miscommunication would be to write much more cumbersome paragraphs, where we substitute sentences in quotes for the word love. This would make the meaning more clear. like this:
Whaddya think? Y’all wanna start doin’ that? Or….We could add 20 or 30 or 50 words to the English language. When I marvel at how quickly and completely we have integrated the metric system here in the U.S., I think that would only take us a century to agree on the specifics, and another one to implement it. Or we could write all our posts on theology in Greek. Or we could look at a couple things.
Did Jesus say “Love God with most of your being, and direct the leftovers at your neighbor”?
No. He said to give it all to God. And then directs us to give some to others. Hello? Does anybody notice this seems paradoxical? I think we gravely underestimate the totality of agape. Dr. Ryser speculates:
“What’s the difference between a lover and a prostitute?” I realized that both do many of the same things, but a lover does what she does because she loves. A prostitute pretends to love, but only as long as you pay. Then I asked the question, “What would happen if God stopped paying me?”
It seems like Dr. Ryser believes a bride has agape, and a whore does not. What if the bride does stop receiving her pay? What if the groom denies her affection, conversation, disclosure, protection, and smokes the family budget in a crack pipe. You think this will affect their sex life? What if after a month of uncomfortable abstinence, He comes home geekin’ an peekin’, with no money, but his crack dealer in tow, so they can gang rape his wife for a $50 rock. These things happen. When she leaves, does that mean she is a whore? Or is she human, like me?
A parent claims to have unconditional love for their child, but it’s their child. That’s a condition. (I do think parent-child love is the closest picture, however…please, no insulted moms armed with torches, tar and feathers)
A spouse truly thinks they have unconditional love for their other half, until they catch em bangin’ the secretary, mailman, or whoever.
Pastors (not mine!) claim unconditional love for their congregation. Huh.
Jesus says the greatest love is laying down your life for your friends. For most of my searching, starving, “where are you God?” life I thought this referred to the whole cross thing, but does it? If I died for you, as like a real big favor, because you sucked so bad you needed to be killed, but then I showed up 3 days later, what was my sacrifice?
Say a man goes from the age of accountability to the time of his death at 33, focused only on God’s agenda for the benefit of those he loves. He rejects the women who want to marry him (you know there at least a couple). As the heir, he turns his back on the family carpentry business, to wander about as an itinerant rabbi, and serve God’s purpose. Say he does this in the face of grave abuse, and crushing disappointment. Doesn’t that more accurately describe the laying down of life? Could that be agape? Even the spiritual giants (and I use this term respectfully) that I know personally have families, homes, lives. Their ministry is just a part of it.
Perhaps agape was brought here for 33 years from another world, the only place it occurs naturally. Maybe we are just trying to sketch the photograph we have been given. Perhaps some of us sketch better than others. Teresa of Avila comes to mind:
Oh God, I don’t love you, I don’t even want to love you, but I want to want to love you!
Anonymous said…
“He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” – John 8:47
I cannot say that I have fully given my life to God or Jesus, I have lots of attachments like beer, money, etc.
Reckon these vices keep me from belonging to God?
TJG
34When the Pharisees heard that Jesus£ had silenced the Sadducees, they met together in the same place. 
35One of them, an expert in the Law, tested him by asking, 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus£ said to him, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’£ 38This is the greatest and most important£ commandment. 39The second is like it: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’£ 40All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments.”This is what Jesus says we must do. This is the most important thing, according to him. What is interesting is that Jesus, who knows a whole lot, including the hearts of men, chooses to answer a one – answer question, with two answers. He tells us that All the Law (a vast do-and-don’t database) and All the Prophets can be distilled to these essentials… hmmm. All means all. Law….. Prophets…. This tells us that when we violate the Law, or fail to apply the wisdom of the Prophets, we are either not loving God, or not loving our neighbor (and remember, Jesus tells us these are flip sides of the same coin, goes so far as to say that not loving our neighbor is not loving God: “first be reconciled to your brother….” ).
Now, I don’t like the notion that breaking a commandment means that I am not loving God. It is a nagging rebuttal from the peanut gallery, that rings out when I am trying to bask in self-righteousness, or privately congratulate myself on my down-to-earth spirituality. I would LOVE to correct Jesus. (Whoa, Lord! you’ve made a mistake in your thinking… let me explain it to you…) To tell us that obeying the Law, and applying the wisdom of the Prophets, are manifestations of loving God and my Neighbor, and that these two things are the One Thing that matters most to God, is shining an inconvenient light into the corners and shadows of religion.
TJG, you ask if your vices keep you from belonging to God:
I cannot say that I have fully given my life to God or Jesus, I have lots of attachments like beer, money, etc.
Reckon these vices keep me from belonging to God?
I think everything already belongs to God, but here is perhaps some food for thought.
I no longer believe that Satan’s every action is taken with Divine permission. Satan may quite possibly be a free agent, acting on his own agenda beneath Divine soveriegnity, like most of us humans. The Idea that Satan does only what is permitted comes from passages in Job1;12, and Job2:6 where the God sets boundaries for the Satanic Torment of Job, and in Luke 22;31 where Jesus Informs Peter that Satan has asked for the right to “sift” him. Now, the Job thing looks to us, like a very civil discussion/debate. A wager. (“Job holds you in reverence and respect, but only because you take care of him. I’ll bet if you let me kick his ass for a while, he will become bitter enough toward you to lose his temper”) now the content here is so interesting, perhaps the greatest challenge is not to get off the subject, but anytime two parties with differing opinions agree to an experiment to see who is right, it is common to lay out some boundaries.
Mother says to Dad, “I’ll bet junior will eat up the Haagen Daz Macadamia Brittle you have been hoarding within 2 days if you move it from the garage freezer and put in in the kitchen, next to the Mayfield vanilla.
Dad replies ” You’re on! but you must not remove the Mayfield nor withhold meals from junior.”
What we see here is agreement on boundaries, not Mother being incapable of moving ice cream. To be sure, the average dad has the physical power to prevent mom from moving the Mayfield, but saying that is not the same thing as saying Mom takes no action without permission.
I am thinking that Satan has at least as much autonomy as we do. Choice is a prerequisite for evil, as well as love.
I was told early in my Christian Walk( I’ve always thought that term was cheesy, wish we would get a new one.), that Satan did only what he was permitted to. A baptist pastor told me this, and I was reminded of it last Tuesday.
My Current Pastor has been showing up bi-monthly for a Q&A, though, to be sure very few questions are answered (we just get more and better ones!), However, He actually did allow me to pin him down- (He was possibly thrown off balance by my lightning-fast change of subject.) When I asked him if he believed in Satanic Autonomy. He answered No. This is not a rare stance, and I one that I held myself until recently… I don’t know if he has taken that opinion out of his doctrinal library and placed it on the table for reexamination or not, but I certainly have.
I think constantly. Most of us do. Occaisionally, when reading, or just being aware of the stream of conciousness flowing through my brain, a thought/concept kinda “jumps” up a little… pops into bas-relief and I will either give it closer consideration or slam my open mind shut in discomfort. (There’s a post there, I think.), But I think that these instances, and any thought, for that matter, have three possibly origins: Divine, Demonic, Or ME.
Anyway to get off the rabbit trail, I jumped to this common conclusion as well, after reading the Bible. The Passage in Job where Satan is told what he can do to ruin Job’s life, a ” you can go this far, but no farther” sort of thing is perhaps the most noted scriptural instance where a first read would let a man think that Satan is a puppet… another little blurb is when Simon Peter has blustered about how tight he is with Jesus, but the Light of the World responds by informing Rocky, that the shallowness of his loyalty will be exposed before the rooster crows. I think this is in Luke. Just prior to this, Jesus tells Peter that Satan asked to sift him “like wheat”.
To me, this is deep stuff. I ponder this from the intellectual shallows of my 9th grade education, and I wonder if this/these passage are sufficient to support the doctrine of Satanic Dis-Autonomy (is that a word?). I don’t think so. For reasons I will detail in my next post, I will explain why I no longer believe this is Chiseled in Stone, and that Satan may quite possibly be a free agent, acting on his own agenda. 😀
I was told early in my Christian Walk( I’ve always thought that term was cheesy, wish we would get a new one.), that Satan did only what he was permitted to. A baptist pastor told me this, and I was reminded of it last Tuesday.
My Current Pastor has been showing up bi-monthly for a Q&A, though, to be sure very few questions are answered (we just get more and better ones!), However, He actually did allow me to pin him down- (He was possibly thrown off balance by my lightning-fast change of subject.) When I asked him if he believed in Satanic Autonomy. He answered No. This is not a rare stance, and I one that I held myself until recently… I don’t know if he has taken that opinion out of his doctrinal library and placed it on the table for reexamination or not, but I certainly have.
I think constantly. Most of us do. Occaisionally, when reading, or just being aware of the stream of conciousness flowing through my brain, a thought/concept kinda “jumps” up a little… pops into bas-relief and I will either give it closer consideration or slam my open mind shut in discomfort. (There’s a post there, I think.), But I think that these instances, and any thought, for that matter, have three possibly origins: Divine, Demonic, Or ME.
Anyway to get off the rabbit trail, I jumped to this common conclusion as well, after reading the Bible. The Passage in Job where Satan is told what he can do to ruin Job’s life, a ” you can go this far, but no farther” sort of thing is perhaps the most noted scriptural instance where a first read would let a man think that Satan is a puppet… another little blurb is when Simon Peter has blustered about how tight he is with Jesus, but the Light of the World responds by informing Rocky, that the shallowness of his loyalty will be exposed before the rooster crows. I think this is in Luke. Just prior to this, Jesus tells Peter that Satan asked to sift him “like wheat”.
To me, this is deep stuff. I ponder this from the intellectual shallows of my 9th grade education, and I wonder if this/these passage are sufficient to support the doctrine of Satanic Dis-Autonomy (is that a word?). I don’t think so. For reasons I will detail in my next post, I will explain why I no longer believe this is Chiseled in Stone, and that Satan may quite possibly be a free agent, acting on his own agenda. 😀
YOU MUST VIEW IT LARGE TO READ IT
the moisture in an air-conditioned funeral home was condensing on his head. this was because he was not embalmed. My father’s wife asked them to hold off on the cremation so that my sister could see him one last time.
A couple of years ago, a man co-ordinating a retreat asked me to teach on the study of scripture. He said the Holy Spirit directed his request. I was sick with anxiety. I had never before felt humbled and greatly honored simultaneously. While researching, I stumbled across another author quoting Philip Yancy’s Disappointment With God:
When It became clear that I was getting a divorce, I purchased the book and read it in it’s entirety. In my emotoinally raw state, Phillip’s writing struck me powerfully. Possibly a week or ten days after I completed it, I found myself reeling from the death of my father. At this time it feels as though I read it years ago.The divorce papers sit in a kitchen cabinet in my new, beautiful, empty house, unsigned. My to do list has been put on hold, at least until tuesday. Since the tornadoes passed through the Macon state campus, I’m told that this semester will not begin on time. Last month, I could look back on the last six or seven years, and God’s hand on my life seemed undeniable. My sight grows dim, My dreams are a joke, and I wonder if I deceived myself. I have journals going back to a time when I wrote prayers to a God whose name I did not know, I know If I could bring myself to read through them, I could trace my path as my Savior drew me to Him, and taught me his name. My faith is in shreds, I am suspicious even when comforted. Seven years Papa. 10 percent of my life. I have followed you, as best I could. My anger grows, I am surprised and fear you. I’m sorry. I have never been more aware of the gulf between souls. I know many suffer greater pain than this. I am so tired in the deepest part of me I yearn for rest. Reassure me of your love. Tell me again that this matters to you.
I Thirst 